Curse

Div · Mar 07, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

So after looking through most of Riverside, Sardelac, and Campfire, I noticed that a good 80% of the community is either crying about how Anet favors PvP more than PvE, how Anet loves to nerf everything, and how Anet doesn't care about the casual gamer.

I did a brief count of the number of buffs/nerfs this last update. 19 nerfs. 38 buffs. The rest were drastic skill changes that can't be easily categorized into either buff or nerf. Why do people only focus on the nerfs to these skills, and not the buffs? There are clearly twice as many buffs as nerfs in this update, but yet the focus is still on the relatively few nerfs.

Second, about PvP vs PvE. A question I'm wondering is how these changes affect your ability to play PvE. To me, I actually enjoy some of the changes, because a lot of the builds I normally run are getting buffed (enfeebling blood comes to mind). Granted, some get nerfed (the fire henchmen in EotN), but I can deal with that by either changing to another build or staying with the same build because it's still solid enough to tackle the hardest tasks thrown at me with no problem in PvE (vanqing, harder dungeons, elite zones).

Third, about Anet not caring about the casual gamer and only pleasing the elite. Almost every guru poster likes to keep at the tip of their tongue "why can't (insert group of people) adapt? Why must PvPers ask for nerfs when they can just 'counter' it?" So the question is, when some of your skills get nerfed, why can't you adapt? Casual gamers love to test out new skill combinations, even if it means they're running a suboptimal build. Nerfing some skills and buffing others just means it gives casual gamers more things to play around with. For example, lions comfort, which used to be fairly popular amongst casual players but is in reality not very efficient now just got a huge buff. It's a great thing to nerf some more popular templates and buff some unused ones to create diversity and to not stick with the same cookie-cutter stuff we've had.

Yuhe Ji · Mar 07, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

The main problem with the nerfs is that they are typically on skills that are widely used. Other times, the skills cannot be replaced for what it used to do, such as mystic regeneration and flame djinn's haste (really messed up raptor farming). The main problem people have is, however, we typically don't want change. We like to stay comfortable with what we have, and any kind of change that would make us have to remake our builds is typically hated.

Though you might not notice it as much, people do take note of the buffs. There are some nice buffs made such.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 07, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

first!

12 chars

Damn you!

On-topic - I dislike skill balances because I'm a clueless PvE scrub who hasn't got the foggiest idea why PvP needs skill balancing, so I cry my eyes out every time a skill is nerfed for the sake of PvP balance even though it doesn't harm my ability to beat PvE with ease at all.

Oh wait...

pygar · Mar 07, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

I'm cool with balances....even though kind of new to guild wars, this isn't the first game I've played where "metagame" and "nerf" are everyday terms and skill balances a regular occurence.

It sucks when your favorite skills get hit, but theres usually some way to get around it and carry on like nothing happened. A-net has proven with recent history that they will make changes like this, and if the changes are too much they will change things again in a smaller update about a week later.(Kind of like all the changes to VoD and stuff lately)

Snow Bunny · Mar 07, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

1. People are innately negative, and will overwhelming focus on the negative as opposed to the positive.

2. They don't affect your changes to PvE. They never do. That's why people still run their hero bars as 2 E/ Searing Flames/Glowing Gaze with a Flesh Golem MM

3. We don't adapt largely because we enjoy mindlessly mashing keys 1,2,3 then collecting our gold drops, selling them, and buying chaos gloves with bandanas

Div · Mar 07, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuhe Ji

The main problem with the nerfs is that they are typically on skills that are widely used. Other times, the skills cannot be replaced for what it used to do, such as mystic regeneration and flame djinn's haste (really messed up raptor farming). The main problem people have is, however, we typically don't want change. We like to stay comfortable with what we have, and any kind of change that would make us have to remake our builds is typically hated.

I guess my problem is that, it is the very same people who say PvPers can't adapt that cry about skill nerfs because they can't replace their most favorite/used skill. Hypocrite much?

Quote:

Though you might not notice it as much, people do take note of the buffs. There are some nice buffs made such.

Yeah, I notice it, but still I'd say the talk about nerfs is disproportionately large.

Crimzon_DST · Mar 07, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Why the hell should i or anyone else who could care less about PvP have to change and adjust ?? its not balanced for PvE...Its balanced for PvP. Your arguments are basically that everyone should make changes to accomodate you and your gameplay. BS..there is a mentality that PvE players should just accept what happens with skill nerfs and be happy that PvP is getting what it wants... No one in PvP could care if a build i like gets ripped due to the main skill getting trashed. So why should i sit back and act like i care about your PvP balance?? if a PvPer cant deal with another player having a good build. Find a better one or deal with it. This basically comes down to no one wants to take a step back to make things better for anyone but themselves..and this started with PvP "balances".

Savio · Mar 07, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

PvE elitists will take any chance they get to denigrade PvPers. (Why? That's another topic.) Skill changes are obviously PvP-oriented, ergo skill changes are the work of the devil. It doesn't look good though when they try to say buffs are bad, so they focus on nerfs instead. The reason nerf talk is disproportionately large is because the forums attract a disproportionate amount of elitists.

There are some other groups of posters that complain about skill nerfs - the "buff all skills" crowd, some farmers - but the former is just silly and the latter gets over it pretty fast.

Also, Divine, since when does what Riverside, Sardelac, and Campfire think actually matter?

BLOODGOAT · Mar 07, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

I don't like them because everybody starts crying and floods the forum with useless QQ posts about ANet being bad, etc.

SouPNaZi[GLP] · Mar 07, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

they should just revert all skills back to normal for pve and make seperate pvp skills

Scary Raebbit · Mar 07, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Cause people always want to whine about something when their precious build that they have worked on for eons is nerfed slightly instead of adapting. Even when the required parts of PvE are a cakewalk (sans a few instances), people must complain cause change=bad.
That, and they don't understand how PvP works. I like it when people say that PvPers should adapt more.

I D E L E T E D I · Mar 07, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

casual pve players dont notice the buffs because they dont even know half the skills in this game. They see FDH got nerfed that one skill they used and QQ about it. Honestly which casual player has ever heard of wail of doom???

cellardweller · Mar 07, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Pretty much every nerfed skill is just as overpowered in PvE as it was in PvP, which is why PvE benefits greatly from the balances, and if it wasn't then its only because the application of the skill wasn't condusive to PvE mashing.

The problem comes when people see that their favorite skill now does 4-5 dps less and view it as a bad thing rather than seeing it widening up the number of viable builds. For example, the RI nerf means that every other nearby AoE nuke has just become more powerful.

FoxBat · Mar 07, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Only a handful of people like innovating new farm builds and such. The rest copy them, and somehow still enjoy running them after the 500,000th time. Nerfs mean their fun is interrupted until someone comes up with a new farm spot and build for them, since they aren't really capable of it themselves.

Cherng Butter · Mar 07, 2008, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Yeah I saw people QQ-ing about how there were 80 nerfs and 2 irrelevant buffs...personally I love skill balances, they make the creative juices start flowing and change things up!

wally · Mar 07, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

What I find most annoying about skill updates, particularly sweeping ones like this one, is how it can really play havoc with pre-set PvE bars, such as monsters, henchmen, etc.

It's not a big deal, in that there are almost always solutions these days, but it always makes me a little disappointed when some of the better monster bars and packs that synergized so well at first start splintering and becoming disjointed.

The only other thing that i love/hate about updates involve figuring out which skills hero AI can manage well without too much player micro. My brain can only process so much at the moment

Darkside · Mar 07, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Because they generally nerf good skills that people enjoy using and buff crappy skills. Problem is they aren't buffed enough to find a place on peoples bars.

horseradish · Mar 07, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I love everything.

That being said, the people who bitch and moan about how the game without contributing contructive opinions should uninstall and play WoW.

Zorian Direspell · Mar 07, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I'll try to answer your questions without debasing myself by entering into the PvE vs. PvP player slugfest it seems designed to evoke.

1. Why do people only focus on the nerfs to these skills, and not the buffs?

Most focus on both. Every criticism I see on these boards seems matched with a remark on how certain buffs are acceptable, or even appreciated. However, nerfs hurt currently existing and likely cherished builds. This skill update, in particular, hit several of mine. Additionally, buffs sometimes don't reach the skills, and more importantly, the play styles, that people care about. For example, in this recent update, people who prefer fire elementalists, by and large, will be disappointed, while those who play air eles, by and large, should be excited. Having played both, I much prefer fire eles. Hence, I am disappointed.

2. how these changes affect your ability to play PvE

They don't. They affect the manner in which I play PvE, not my efficiency at it. One build can always be replaced by another (although obviously some of the farm nerfs could utterly eliminate certain PvE playstyles). The problem is that the method by which you dispatch enemies has to be fun for a game to be worth playing. Fun may be subjective, and hard to exactly qualify, but generally, that's what matters. I find nuking multiple enemies with my ele fun. I find spiking with my ele sort of fun, but not as fun as nuking. Hence, this update hampered my fun.

3. when some of your skills get nerfed, why can't you adapt?

Partially explained by the above answer. I can. I imagine most players must, or they would stop playing. But unless they see something they can adapt into that they will enjoy as much as the experience that they've lost, most players will be upset. This is true of any change in service offerings in any industry. Eliminating super sized fries at McDonald's, for example, made obesity/health critics happy, but it upset a number of patrons who realized they would have to pay more for the same quantity of fries. It's really not about people 'handling' it. It's about whether or not people want the change they're offered.

xDusT II · Mar 07, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

People like to blame Anet because they never really say anything back. That and because they see other people doing it and think it's the cool thing to do.